Ancient History Already

Brian!

As the myths go, someone asked Scott what he thought about Kirkman’s little speech. This was a couple weeks ago now, so in internet time it took place somewhere in the previous Ice Age. But Scott promised we’d talk about it, and so we are talking about it!

I’m not sure I have much of a response to it. I mean, super paraphrased here, he said that comics creators should concentrate on creator-owned works and to stop thinking of working for Marvel or DC as the goal.

I guess Scott and I are ahead of the curve since we never had any real interest in working for anyone but ourselves. I mean, if Marvel or DC wants to toss some work to either of us, and we can do it without interrupting Robo’s schedule, and it’s something we’d enjoy working on, then sure, why not? Their money is as green as anyone else’s. But it was never and will never be the goal for either of us.

Kirkman didn’t say anything I haven’t heard creators talk about privately and publicly for years, and that was before I was “in” the business. These were probably sentiments that were rumbling around several years before I ever caught wind of them. What’s interesting about Kirkman giving this message is that he’s in a fancy position at one of the larger American comics publishers. Maybe now the message will be heard by the people who need to hear it: the other publishers. Maybe he can help to frame the message in a way that interests them. Because, right now, the big plan is to gut them of their major talents. Perhaps you can imagine why these publishers don’t do anything to encourage that?

Something’s got to be done though. American comics is an industry in the decline. The only thing keeping it afloat right now is the ridiculous influx of interest and funds from Hollywood, and when that bubble bursts…well, I don’t know. Some folks seem to think it won’t be that bad. That comics will weather it much better than the ’90s speculator bust. I have my doubts. The speculator craze drove readers away. The readers we have left today aren’t buying enough copies to honestly justify about half the titles out there. Once you remove Hollywood money (or the potential for it) from the equation, you’re going to see a lot of titles and publishers go missing inside of a year. What kind of effect is that going to have on your average reader? Your average retailer? I like to think we’d survive, but I rather like a thriving comics industry better and I just don’t see that being sustained for very long. If I’m wrong, man, that’d be great.

There is one major problem with the “only do creator-owned work”. And this from someone who only does creator-owned work. There’s not a tremendous market for it. Kirkman’s Invincible and The Walking Dead are very popular indie books, but combined they sell a fraction of the number of Amazing Spider-Man comics that are sold in a week. This isn’t an indication of quality, it’s just that very few indie creators have the kind of forty years of promotion and branding that Spider-Man and its ilk enjoy. I guess what I’m saying is that it’s not economically feasible, at all, for most creators to go the indie route. Atomic Robo is probably the indie success story of 2007, but after #6 went on sale two things became immediately evident.

1) People loved Robo and they wanted more.

2) It was mathematically impossible to us to afford to do any more ever.

For a book in its position (unknown title, unknown character, unknown creators, unknown publisher), I think Robo broke sales records for this particular era of the industry. I consider it to be exactly the kind of book this industry needs. Reviewers, bloggers, and readers agree. And it still wasn’t earning enough to be self-sufficient. Let me be absolutely clear on this point: Red 5 Comics made Volume 2 possible. Without their support, I’d have long since gone bankrupt and there’d be no new Robo comics for you.

So, that’s the kind of barrier that’s facing creator owned works. When one of the best titles to debut in years can’t keep itself afloat, there’s a problem.

From my position as an indie creator and as a retailer, the problem appears to be that there’s too many of the wrong kind of reader. I’m talking about the lifers who stick to Marvel and/or DC. People who routinely shell out $50+ per week on books they don’t even really enjoy, but who are afraid they might “waste” $3 on something they “might” not like when they acknowledge to throwing away $50+ on books they largely dislike.

There’s too many of that kind of reader because Marvel and DC did everything they could to create them. These were the kinds of readers they needed to get through the long cold winter. And now we’re stuck with them. These are the readers who are keeping the industry’s output in a perpetual infancy. These are the readers who have built the comics market into a giant barrier that actively discourages exactly the kinds of new content and new readers the industry needs.

That’s how I see it anyway.

I don’t know if Kirkman’s plan, insofar as there is one, is the solution. But if it gets publishers together to talk about it — or, hell — if it just raises fan awareness of how the industry works and why it’s in their interests for us to change that, then that’s good enough for me.


  • David

    If it makes you feel any better I started reading webcomics when I first saw yours about 3 months in. Atomic Robo was the first comic I bought since I was in elementary school and my mom used to buy be Sonic and X-men. I grew out of sonic and could never really get into X-men, because I never could figure out what was going on. My experiences have made me agree with everything you just said.
    Strangely, I’ve tried getting into comics in the past, but it seems like DC and Marvel almost try to deter new customers. After I started getting Atomic Robo I looked into getting some X-men, but none seemed like something I could just jump into. On the bright side I just ordered the first trade from Hellboy.
    On an unrelated note is Neozoic going to get a trade. I would like to start it, but can’t find the first 3 for anything less than 5 or 6 dollars each.

  • David

    If it makes you feel any better I started reading webcomics when I first saw yours about 3 months in. Atomic Robo was the first comic I bought since I was in elementary school and my mom used to buy be Sonic and X-men. I grew out of sonic and could never really get into X-men, because I never could figure out what was going on. My experiences have made me agree with everything you just said.
    Strangely, I’ve tried getting into comics in the past, but it seems like DC and Marvel almost try to deter new customers. After I started getting Atomic Robo I looked into getting some X-men, but none seemed like something I could just jump into. On the bright side I just ordered the first trade from Hellboy.
    On an unrelated note is Neozoic going to get a trade. I would like to start it, but can’t find the first 3 for anything less than 5 or 6 dollars each.

  • http://nextbatmanbadguy.blogspot.com/ Mecha-Shiva

    Well hooray for Red 5 then.

    I assume the growth market, especially for creator owned stuff, is in the trades. Not that many people pick up monthly comics, but you see lots of people browsing the shelves at a regular bookstore. So I’m hoping the Robo trades maybe make up for the single issue numbers? But amazon choked on ever shipping those, I think, and I can’t imagine there’s much of a bookstore presence, so maybe not.

  • http://nextbatmanbadguy.blogspot.com/ Mecha-Shiva

    Well hooray for Red 5 then.

    I assume the growth market, especially for creator owned stuff, is in the trades. Not that many people pick up monthly comics, but you see lots of people browsing the shelves at a regular bookstore. So I’m hoping the Robo trades maybe make up for the single issue numbers? But amazon choked on ever shipping those, I think, and I can’t imagine there’s much of a bookstore presence, so maybe not.

  • http://www.nuklearpower.com Brian!

    @David: Marvel and DC absolutely deter new customers. I don’t think they mean to, but after a couple decades of the industry becoming increasingly insular while their holds over it became increasingly tighter, I don’t think they’re structured to bring in new readers any more. Their idea of “new readers” is to get current readers to pick up new titles. That’s a bad plan.

    And, yes, Neozoic will be collected into a trade. I believe the first 7 or 8 issues will be included in the first volume, but don’t quote me on that. Regardless, a collectioin is 100% in the works.

    @Mecha-Shiva: Bookstores get their trades from the same place Amazon does: Diamond Books, an off-shoot of Diamond Comics. I’m told Diamond Books is more reliable than the comics division, but Diamond has been trained to treat indie titles as second class citizens when they’re acknowledged at all. However, I earn literally twenty times more profit on the sale of a trade than the sale of an issue, so any trade sales are fantastic.

    That might sound like a lot, but keep in mind that an ant can carry twenty times its own body weight.

  • http://www.nuklearpower.com Brian!

    @David: Marvel and DC absolutely deter new customers. I don’t think they mean to, but after a couple decades of the industry becoming increasingly insular while their holds over it became increasingly tighter, I don’t think they’re structured to bring in new readers any more. Their idea of “new readers” is to get current readers to pick up new titles. That’s a bad plan.

    And, yes, Neozoic will be collected into a trade. I believe the first 7 or 8 issues will be included in the first volume, but don’t quote me on that. Regardless, a collectioin is 100% in the works.

    @Mecha-Shiva: Bookstores get their trades from the same place Amazon does: Diamond Books, an off-shoot of Diamond Comics. I’m told Diamond Books is more reliable than the comics division, but Diamond has been trained to treat indie titles as second class citizens when they’re acknowledged at all. However, I earn literally twenty times more profit on the sale of a trade than the sale of an issue, so any trade sales are fantastic.

    That might sound like a lot, but keep in mind that an ant can carry twenty times its own body weight.

  • Mohammad

    If Robo’s success isn’t enough to make it self-sufficient, how are you guys going to continue at all? Or is that only counting the sales of the individual issues?

    Just picked up the first issue of #2, BTW, and it’s just as good as the first. But why only 5 issues this time? Financial constraints?

  • Mohammad

    If Robo’s success isn’t enough to make it self-sufficient, how are you guys going to continue at all? Or is that only counting the sales of the individual issues?

    Just picked up the first issue of #2, BTW, and it’s just as good as the first. But why only 5 issues this time? Financial constraints?

  • http://www.nuklearpower.com Brian!

    Red 5 Comics is helping to shoulder the financial burden for Robo starting with Volume 2. Previous to that, I was paying for all the art, colors, and lettering. That adds up FAST. I’m just a guy with a part time job and a webcomic. My pockets are not very deep.

    Things will get better when royalties for the trade starts to roll in. Things will be just about sustainable once we have royalties from several trades coming in at once.

    And we’re doing five issues in Volume 2 because that’s how much story there was this time around. We initially thought it’d only be four issues, but then it became clear that’d be too cramped for everything we wanted to do. We talked about doing six, but after looking at it for about a week it was clear that there wasn’t quite six issues worth of content. We don’t do filler, so we’re not about to stretch five issues into six.

  • http://www.nuklearpower.com Brian!

    Red 5 Comics is helping to shoulder the financial burden for Robo starting with Volume 2. Previous to that, I was paying for all the art, colors, and lettering. That adds up FAST. I’m just a guy with a part time job and a webcomic. My pockets are not very deep.

    Things will get better when royalties for the trade starts to roll in. Things will be just about sustainable once we have royalties from several trades coming in at once.

    And we’re doing five issues in Volume 2 because that’s how much story there was this time around. We initially thought it’d only be four issues, but then it became clear that’d be too cramped for everything we wanted to do. We talked about doing six, but after looking at it for about a week it was clear that there wasn’t quite six issues worth of content. We don’t do filler, so we’re not about to stretch five issues into six.

  • Dave

    Hopefully things well start to improve with the combination of the first trade and the marketing blitz associated with the release of series two.

    Which, I’ll confess is how I found out about the title. Newsarama’s coverage of series two was the first I heard about it…and low and behold that afternoon I saw the trade at a Newbury Comics…so now I’m on the Robo train.

  • Dave

    Hopefully things well start to improve with the combination of the first trade and the marketing blitz associated with the release of series two.

    Which, I’ll confess is how I found out about the title. Newsarama’s coverage of series two was the first I heard about it…and low and behold that afternoon I saw the trade at a Newbury Comics…so now I’m on the Robo train.

  • http://www.nuklearpower.com Brian!

    Initial sales for Vol 2, Iss #1 were double what they were for the first series. So, we’re definitely moving in the right direction. We were lucky in that the Eisner Nominations plus this year’s FCBD event gave us several months of great buzz leading into the first trade’s release and then this second series.

  • http://www.nuklearpower.com Brian!

    Initial sales for Vol 2, Iss #1 were double what they were for the first series. So, we’re definitely moving in the right direction. We were lucky in that the Eisner Nominations plus this year’s FCBD event gave us several months of great buzz leading into the first trade’s release and then this second series.

  • the dude

    I was gonna skip going into town this week to the shop, but if #2 is out I might have to reconsider.

    I’m a new guy to the whole comics thing, relatively speaking, having only started reading comics a couple years ago (I’m 26 now, go figure), and honestly, the main Marvel and DC titles don’t do much for me, exceptions aside. There’s too much stuff going on, too much to learn to understand so many of the series, and I just can’t make myself care enough to do it.

    I jumped onto A.R. Vol. 1 pretty late, ordering the whole run around when issue 5 was out. My comic shop guy signed me up for Vol. 2 before I knew to ask, actually. I like the general light-heartedness of it; comics tend to be pretty serious things lately in the mainstream.

    And The Big Lebowski IS one of the greatest movies of all time. Watched it last night, actually. It’s therapeutic.

  • the dude

    I was gonna skip going into town this week to the shop, but if #2 is out I might have to reconsider.

    I’m a new guy to the whole comics thing, relatively speaking, having only started reading comics a couple years ago (I’m 26 now, go figure), and honestly, the main Marvel and DC titles don’t do much for me, exceptions aside. There’s too much stuff going on, too much to learn to understand so many of the series, and I just can’t make myself care enough to do it.

    I jumped onto A.R. Vol. 1 pretty late, ordering the whole run around when issue 5 was out. My comic shop guy signed me up for Vol. 2 before I knew to ask, actually. I like the general light-heartedness of it; comics tend to be pretty serious things lately in the mainstream.

    And The Big Lebowski IS one of the greatest movies of all time. Watched it last night, actually. It’s therapeutic.

  • Richard

    I just wanted to pop in a say a few comments here. First, excellent article. It was very informative and gave me an insight into the comics industry I never had. I also wanted to mention that I am a relatively late comer to comics as well. I started reading Hellboy a couple of years ago and have been hooked ever since. I find myself looking for comics like Atomic Robo. I never have been a fan of the mainstream and thoroughly enjoy the originality of the indies. I’m not afraid to plop down 3 bucks for something I think is original. We need more Red 5′s IMO.

    This from a 40 year old kid ;)

    Good luck with Robo vol 2 and I’ll be sure to get the Vol 1 trade when it’s released.

  • Richard

    I just wanted to pop in a say a few comments here. First, excellent article. It was very informative and gave me an insight into the comics industry I never had. I also wanted to mention that I am a relatively late comer to comics as well. I started reading Hellboy a couple of years ago and have been hooked ever since. I find myself looking for comics like Atomic Robo. I never have been a fan of the mainstream and thoroughly enjoy the originality of the indies. I’m not afraid to plop down 3 bucks for something I think is original. We need more Red 5′s IMO.

    This from a 40 year old kid ;)

    Good luck with Robo vol 2 and I’ll be sure to get the Vol 1 trade when it’s released.

  • http://www.nuklearpower.com Brian!
  • http://www.nuklearpower.com Brian!
  • Richard

    Ha! That just goes to show you how “oustide” the loop I am :)

    I guess I’ll head out to Comix Connection tomorrow and get me a copy.

  • Richard

    Ha! That just goes to show you how “oustide” the loop I am :)

    I guess I’ll head out to Comix Connection tomorrow and get me a copy.

  • Josh

    I think Scott makes a good point over on his blog, that a lot of creators original ideas simply aren’t good enough. Comic buyers are more likely to go for the established brand because even if it is a bad comic, there will be a character they love in it. It’s not the right way to do things, maybe, but from that point of view, even the worst Batman story is still about Batman and not this new guy they’ve never heard of. It’s a safe bet, and comic buyers need to be shaken out of that kind of apathy. Even if you don’t want to give up superheroes, there’s always titles like Black Summer and No Hero… just to plug some great books.

    And thanks for answering this question so robustly. There’s been a lot of insight between you and Scott.

  • Josh

    I think Scott makes a good point over on his blog, that a lot of creators original ideas simply aren’t good enough. Comic buyers are more likely to go for the established brand because even if it is a bad comic, there will be a character they love in it. It’s not the right way to do things, maybe, but from that point of view, even the worst Batman story is still about Batman and not this new guy they’ve never heard of. It’s a safe bet, and comic buyers need to be shaken out of that kind of apathy. Even if you don’t want to give up superheroes, there’s always titles like Black Summer and No Hero… just to plug some great books.

    And thanks for answering this question so robustly. There’s been a lot of insight between you and Scott.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=644003938 Pat

    It can be rather sad to see some of those lifers shuffle into the comic shop, go directly to the front desk, pick up their “file” (a stack of comics 2-3 inches high), pay with a credit card, and exit the store without so much as glancing at the assorted comics on display or bothering to communicate with fellow patrons.

    The big companies’ tendency to try to get new sales by merely increasing the purchases of their current customers has almost reached the point of absurdity. Comics “events” are now almost continuous, with a new war or crisis taking place at all times. The latest of these, Marvel’s Civil War/Secret Invasion and DC’s Final Crisis (we can only hope) start taking things to extremes.

    Civil War had a main book, and then nearly every Marvel book in print had at least a one-issue tie-in that became part of the Civil War “checklist,” with cameos by major characters in the books of those lowest on the totem pole. I find it difficult to care about every character’s take on the events, or how Howard the Duck deals with SHIELD agents.

    Final Crisis is, if anything, even worse. If you don’t already read a plethora of DC books, the Final Crisis book itself is wholly indecipherable. You’ll have no idea what is going on…unless you buy all the other books in the tie-in, because main plot points are spread throughout every book with a Final Crisis tag. The core Final Crisis book is actually unreadable without all the other supporting books.

    Pat

    PS. Friend Atomic Robo on Facebook or something bad will happen to you. Really. The vagueness of the threat makes it that much more sinister.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=644003938 Pat

    It can be rather sad to see some of those lifers shuffle into the comic shop, go directly to the front desk, pick up their “file” (a stack of comics 2-3 inches high), pay with a credit card, and exit the store without so much as glancing at the assorted comics on display or bothering to communicate with fellow patrons.

    The big companies’ tendency to try to get new sales by merely increasing the purchases of their current customers has almost reached the point of absurdity. Comics “events” are now almost continuous, with a new war or crisis taking place at all times. The latest of these, Marvel’s Civil War/Secret Invasion and DC’s Final Crisis (we can only hope) start taking things to extremes.

    Civil War had a main book, and then nearly every Marvel book in print had at least a one-issue tie-in that became part of the Civil War “checklist,” with cameos by major characters in the books of those lowest on the totem pole. I find it difficult to care about every character’s take on the events, or how Howard the Duck deals with SHIELD agents.

    Final Crisis is, if anything, even worse. If you don’t already read a plethora of DC books, the Final Crisis book itself is wholly indecipherable. You’ll have no idea what is going on…unless you buy all the other books in the tie-in, because main plot points are spread throughout every book with a Final Crisis tag. The core Final Crisis book is actually unreadable without all the other supporting books.

    Pat

    PS. Friend Atomic Robo on Facebook or something bad will happen to you. Really. The vagueness of the threat makes it that much more sinister.

  • Mike

    I don’t have much to say about Kirkman’s thing, but I want to say how much I love Atomic Robo. I don’t read much from Marvel or DC these days, and if I do it’s probably reprints of Golden or Silver Age stuff. I found Atomic Robo on FCBD and loved it. Soon after I was able to get the whole first series. Again, loved it. Couldn’t wait for Vol. 2. And then, horror! None of the 3 comic shops in my city had it when I went to get it. SOLD OUT! OK, I should have just ordered it online, but I didn’t. Then, yesterday I was on a trip, 350 miles from home. I stopped in a comic shop to look around. There, hidden under a copy of the Vol. 1 trade, was Vol. 2 #1. I don’t know who hid it, but they’re screwed, ’cause I got it! Oh joy! Rapture!

  • Mike

    I don’t have much to say about Kirkman’s thing, but I want to say how much I love Atomic Robo. I don’t read much from Marvel or DC these days, and if I do it’s probably reprints of Golden or Silver Age stuff. I found Atomic Robo on FCBD and loved it. Soon after I was able to get the whole first series. Again, loved it. Couldn’t wait for Vol. 2. And then, horror! None of the 3 comic shops in my city had it when I went to get it. SOLD OUT! OK, I should have just ordered it online, but I didn’t. Then, yesterday I was on a trip, 350 miles from home. I stopped in a comic shop to look around. There, hidden under a copy of the Vol. 1 trade, was Vol. 2 #1. I don’t know who hid it, but they’re screwed, ’cause I got it! Oh joy! Rapture!

  • http://www.comicbooknews.us HiddenVorlon

    Now’s the time for Atomic Robo to pick up fans. I can’t say about DC, but I know Marvel is losing readers by the truckload. With killing Cap, having a red Hulk and the completely disastrous Spider-Man retcon, people are leaving Marvel by the truckload.

    Atomic Robo is something that most comics aren’t anymore – FUN! All Marvel & DC comics continually have to “shake things up” because they have bad writing.

    I’m glad Red 5 stepped in and made Vol 2 possible, because Atomic Robo is a fantastic read.

  • http://www.comicbooknews.us/ HiddenVorlon

    Now’s the time for Atomic Robo to pick up fans. I can’t say about DC, but I know Marvel is losing readers by the truckload. With killing Cap, having a red Hulk and the completely disastrous Spider-Man retcon, people are leaving Marvel by the truckload.

    Atomic Robo is something that most comics aren’t anymore – FUN! All Marvel & DC comics continually have to “shake things up” because they have bad writing.

    I’m glad Red 5 stepped in and made Vol 2 possible, because Atomic Robo is a fantastic read.

  • http://www.myspace.com/powerslave214 Scott Conner

    Egads.

    I’m glad Red5 is helping foot the bill, I don’t want to think about no more Atomic Robo.

    Gah! That’s downright depressing!

  • http://www.myspace.com/powerslave214 Scott Conner

    Egads.

    I’m glad Red5 is helping foot the bill, I don’t want to think about no more Atomic Robo.

    Gah! That’s downright depressing!

  • Dave

    @Hidden Vorlon

    Well I don’t know about losing readers by the truckload. Killing Cap (as much as I disliked the move at the time) has produced a really exceptional storyline. And as much as I think its dreck…Red Hulk does seem to sell well.

    I don’t think the majors versus indie thing has to be a zero sum game. Granted, more of my output is turning to things like Hellboy, Atomic Robo, Rex Mundi, etc. But I still do have a selection of Marvel comics that I still enjoy.

    The idea of an indie comic needing a good idea is obvious but sound. After all, there is plenty of poor books published by small companies that disappears quickly too…

  • Dave

    @Hidden Vorlon

    Well I don’t know about losing readers by the truckload. Killing Cap (as much as I disliked the move at the time) has produced a really exceptional storyline. And as much as I think its dreck…Red Hulk does seem to sell well.

    I don’t think the majors versus indie thing has to be a zero sum game. Granted, more of my output is turning to things like Hellboy, Atomic Robo, Rex Mundi, etc. But I still do have a selection of Marvel comics that I still enjoy.

    The idea of an indie comic needing a good idea is obvious but sound. After all, there is plenty of poor books published by small companies that disappears quickly too…

  • blueskirt42

    I second what Pat and the dude said. I would like to get into some DC and Marvel series, but there’s simply too much backstory related to them and the amount of issues required just to follow their latest crossovers is simply ridiculous.

    I wish that DC and Marvel could limit themselves to 1 or 2 good mini series per characters every years rather than 20+ mediocre issues. Things would be much better.

  • blueskirt42

    I second what Pat and the dude said. I would like to get into some DC and Marvel series, but there’s simply too much backstory related to them and the amount of issues required just to follow their latest crossovers is simply ridiculous.

    I wish that DC and Marvel could limit themselves to 1 or 2 good mini series per characters every years rather than 20+ mediocre issues. Things would be much better.

  • http://www.nuklearpower.com Brian!

    It’s funny, people will ask me at the shop what I read. I’m kind of embarrassed to admit it, but the majority of my reading is straight up mainstream Marvel titles. ASM, both Iron Man titles, Iron Fist, Hellcat, both Avenger titles, etc.

    I work at a comic shop and write an indie comic. Aren’t I, like, required to have a list of indie favorites a mile long? I feel like a traitor!

  • http://www.nuklearpower.com Brian!

    It’s funny, people will ask me at the shop what I read. I’m kind of embarrassed to admit it, but the majority of my reading is straight up mainstream Marvel titles. ASM, both Iron Man titles, Iron Fist, Hellcat, both Avenger titles, etc.

    I work at a comic shop and write an indie comic. Aren’t I, like, required to have a list of indie favorites a mile long? I feel like a traitor!

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